>> THANK FOR JOINING US FOR ANOTHER EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US AND THANKS TO OUR FRIENDS AT THE GATESWORTH FOR MAKING THIS PROGRAM POSSIBLE AS YOU DO WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT.

LET'S MEET THOSE ASSEMBLED AROUND THE BIG GREEN TABLE ON THIS THURSDAY.

STARTING WITH THE MEDIA VETERAN HERSELF, WENDY WIESE.

ALONG WITH MR.

BILL McCLELLAN, ONE OF OUR FOUNDERS, WITH THE POST-DISPATCH.

ANOTHER ONE OF OUR FOUNDERS FROM STLMAG.COM AND ST.

LOUIS MAGAZINE, HE'S RAY HARTMANN.

AND FROM STLMAG.COM, ST.

LOUIS AMERICAN AND BEYOND, ALVIN REID.

WELL, WE'VE GOT A LOT TO TALK ABOUT, BILL McCLELLAN.

WE'LL START WITH YOU.

KIND OF A SURPRISE, SAM DOTSON, THE CHIEF OF POLICE FOR THE CITY OF ST.

LOUIS, TENDERED HIS RESIGNATION ON THE VERY FIRST DAY THAT LYDA KREWSON TOOK OVER AS THE NEW MAYOR FOR THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

SOME PEOPLE WERE SAYING, WOW, $129,000 TO BE A CONSULTANT FOR ONE MORE YEAR, THINK THAT'S TOO MUCH.

DID YOU THINK THAT WAS TOO GENEROUS A GOLDEN HANDSHAKE?

>> NO, NO, I DIDN'T.

THE LEGISLATURE HAS MADE IT DIFFICULT TO FIRE A POLICE CHIEF.

I THINK THE NEW MAYOR WANTED TO GET RID OF CHIEF DOTSON AND YOU HAVE TO GIVE SOMEBODY SOMETHING.

I MEAN, I DON'T THINK SHE HAD CAUSE TO FIRE HIM EXCEPT, YOU KNOW, POLITICS, SO I THINK THIS IS A NICE OFFER AND I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS TOO GENEROUS.

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE CAUSE SHE HAD WAS THE CAUSE, HE WAS GOING TO BE A PAIN IN HER LIFE AND I THINK THIS GOES ALL THE WAY BACK WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR MAYOR AND SUDDENLY HE WAS NOT RUNNING FOR PLAYER.

WHENEVER THEY HAD THIS, YOU KNOW, COME TO JESUS FLEEING GOOD WHO AS WASN'T -- MEETING ABOUT WHO WAS GOING TO AND NOT GOING TO RUN.

HE DROP OUT AND I THINK HE IRONED HIS WAY TO THIS DEAL AT THAT TIME.

JUST LIKE WHEN A FREE AGENT SIGNS A CONTRACT, YOU KNOW, TO PLAY FOR ANOTHER TEAM AT 10 MINUTES AFTER MIDNIGHT AND YOU COULDN'T TALK TO THIS PERSON BEFORE MIDNIGHT ON THIS DATE, BUT MYSTERIOUSLY, A DEAL HAS ALREADY BEEN STRUCK.

>> I WASN'T -- >> DEALS ARE STRUCK -- >> I DON'T THINK IT SUGGESTS ANY SORT OF CLANDESTINE ANYTHING.

I THINK WHEN -- >> I GET TO WORK A YEAR AND DO NOTHING BASICALLY.

>> I THINK WHEN LYDA -- [ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> WHEN MAYOR KREWSON HAD IT ALL LOCKED UP, THAT'S WHEN I THINK THIS WAS ARRANGED.

I DON'T THINK IT GOES BACK TO -- >> I DON'T THINK IT WAS ARRANGED.

MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING.

>> WELL, EVERYBODY IN THE -- >> FIRST OF ALL, IT WAS A GOOD MOVE FOR HER POLITICALLY, IF NOTHING ELSE TO SIGNAL TO PEOPLE THAT THIS ISN'T THE FIFTH TERM OF THE SLAY ADMINISTRATION, WHICH WAS A BIG THING, BECAUSE HE WAS CERTAINLY LINKED UP TO MAYOR SLAY.

I THINK IT WAS SUBSTANTIVELY A GOOD MOVE FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT MYSELF AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE, CERTAINLY IN THE CAMPAIGN, ANTONIO FRENCH, TISHAURA, HAD EXPRESSED THAT, AND POLITICALLY, AS YOU SAY, IT WAS A GOOD MOVE.

I DON'T -- AND I ALWAYS LIKE WHEN THEY CALL IT A RETIREMENT.

IT WAS TREATED LIKE IT WAS PAID FOR AS IF IT HAD BEEN A FIRING.

I THINK EVERYBODY REALIZES IT DIDN'T -- >> AND I THINK IT WAS A GOOD ENDING FOR EVERYBODY INVOLVED.

>> I THINK YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT.

I THINK NAS UNDERSTANDING -- >> THAT'S A LITTLE CONSPIRATORIAL.

>> WHY DID HE GET OUT OF THE WAY?

DON'T FORGET, HE DECIDED NOT TO RUN FOR MAYOR BECAUSE OTHERWISE HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO GIVE UP HIS SEAT.

SO THEN SHE BECOMES MAYOR AND HE GIVES UP HIS SEAT, IT MAKES NO SENSE.

[ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> IT'S A BUYOUT AND I THINK THAT THE MAYOR FOR POLITICAL REASONS DECIDED SAM DOESN'T HAVE MUCH OF A CONSTITUENCY.

HE'S CERTAINLY NOT THE YOUNG PEOPLE SHE NEEDS TO GET ON HER SIDE NOW.

THIS IS A GOOD WAY TO DO IT.

>> WELL, IN THE BYGONE DAYS, DID OTHER POLICE CHIEFS WHOSE TIME SORT OF RAN INTO THE TAIL END OF, YOU KNOW, AN ADMINISTRATION AND THE BEGINNING OF ANOTHER, DID THEY RECEIVE THESE TYPES OF LOVELY PARTING GIFTS?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

>> NO, THEY DID NOT.

>> IN THE SCALE OF THESE THINGS -- >> LET ME ASK YOU, RAY, DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD GO OUTSIDE THE CITY, EVEN THOUGH I DON'T THINK THE CITY CHARTER ALLOWS IT, FOR THE CITY OF ST.

LOUIS TO GET A POLICE CHIEF FROM OUTSIDE THE CURRENT RANKS.

DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD TRY TO DO THAT?

>> I THINK WE SHOULD DEFINITELY LOOK AS BROADLY -- ST.

LOUIS SHOULD LOOK AS BROADLY AS IT CAN.

EVERYBODY AGREES THIS IS JOB ONE FOR CITY GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW IS PUBLIC SAFETY AND THEY HAVE TO ERR IN THE DIRECTION OF LOOKING AS BROADLY AS THEY CAN.

ONE MODEL, BY THE WAY, IS NEW YORK, I'VE BEEN TOLD.

IF IN FACT ON A TECHNICAL GROUNDS THEY CAN'T HAVE A POLICE CHIEF OUTSIDE THE AREA, YOU COULD HAVE A POLICE COMMISSIONER AND THAT WOULD BE AN INTERESTING KIND OF A CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT OF THE POLICE FORCE, NOT NECESSARILY THE DAY-TO-DAY CHIEF, AND I THINK THAT THEY OUGHT TO ERR IN THE DIRECTION OF LOOKING BROADLY.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY MIGHT NOT PICK SOMEBODY LOCALLY, BUT I THINK THEY SHOULD LOOK AS BROADLY -- >> I THINK THE IDEA OF HAVING A COMMISSIONER AND A CHIEF DOESN'T MAKE MUCH SENSE.

I MEAN, YOU WANT SOMEBODY WHO'S IN CHARGE AND, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE WHO IT SHOULD BE.

KRISTINE BYERS POSTED A STORY A COUPLE WEEKS AGO ABOUT ERNEST WILLIAMS, A PATROLMAN, JUST RETIRED FOR MORE THAN 40 YEARS IN THE SIXTH DISTRICT, NEVER PROMOTED, NEVER EVEN A DETECTIVE, BUT EVERYBODY ADMIRED HIM AND WHOEVER THE PANEL IS THAT PICKS A NEW CHIEF, I THINK THAT ERNEST WILLIAMS OUGHT TO BE ON BECAUSE IF YOU GO OUTSIDE, THE PROBLEM IS YOU GET SOMEBODY WHO INTERVIEWS WELL.

I'VE SEEN IT ON THE PAPER.

COMPANIES HAVE IT -- >> WELL, LOOK AT THE SCHOOL BOARD.

>> YEAH, YOU HIRE SOMEBODY BECAUSE THEY INTERVIEW VERY WELL AND THEY COME HERE AND THEY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.

I'M HERY ABOUT GOING OUT OF -- HERELY ABOUT GOING OUT OF TOWN.

>> BUT IF YOU ONLY HIRE FROM WITHIN, YOU DON'T GET THE BEST PRACTICES FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY.

LET'S SAY BILL BRATTON WHO SERVED WELL IN LOS ANGELES AND NEW YORK WERE AVAILABLE, I THINK WE SHOULD TRY TO GET HIM, OR SOMEONE WITH GREAT STATURE WITH PROVEN EXPERIENCE.

>> I AGREE, BUT ANOTHER MYSTERY IS WHY WOULDN'T YOU STAY ON THE JOB UNTIL A NEW CHIEF IS HIRED TO REPLACE YOU.

WE HAVE AN AXING CHIEF, WHICH IS CRAZY.

AND WHEN WE DO THIS HIERARCHY OF WHO IS IN LINE TO BE POLICE CHIEF IN THE CITY OF ST.

LOUIS, I GUARANTEE YOU THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME RACIAL ACTION S, WHO'S IN LINE, WHO THEORETICALLY WOULD BE MET, ALL THOSE QUESTIONS WILL COME OUT.

>> LARRY O'TOOLE, THE ACTING CHIEF, WILL PROBABLY BE NEXT, BUT I SUSPECT THAT MAYOR KREWSON IS GOING TO SELECT A BLACK PERSON, AN AFRICAN AMERICAN.

>> AND WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> LET'S MOVE ON.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, ALVIN, ABOUT MAYOR KREWSON AND HER SPEECH, AMONG OTHER THINGS SHE SAID LOOK OUT, ST. LOUIS.

STATE AND FEDERAL FUNDING WOULD DWINDLE.

WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT HER SPEECH?

>> SHE DIDN'T MENTION THE PRESIDENT BY NAME THROUGHOUT HER SPEECH, BUT YOU COULD TELL SHE WAS SPEAKING ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS HE WANTS TO DO AND QUITE FRANKLY, SHE SOUNDED LIKE HIM BECAUSE PART OF IT WAS LIKE, OH REALLY?

ST.

LOUIS HAS BEEN UNDER AN ECONOMIC RENAISSANCE FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS?

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT UNTIL I HEAR THE SPEECH.

COMING UP AND SAYING THIS IS HAPPENING AND IT'S ALL GOOD, AND ALSO, ONCE AGAIN, NOT EVERYBODY HAS BEEN A PART OF IT.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE, BUT NOBODY CAN SAY THOSE WORDS, BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE.

I WAS UNDERWHELMED.

I'M NOT BUYING IN THIS IS DIFFERENT.

CHIEF DOTSON MAY BE GONE, BUT I'M NOT BUYING IN YET.

>> I THINK THAT'S A LITTLE HARSH.

OF COURSE A MAYOR GIVING A SPEECH IS NOT GOING TO BE JUST ALL GLOOM AND DOOM ON THEIR INAUGURAL SPEECH, AND I RESPECT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT -- >> I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS.

>> I DON'T FOLLOW HIS WORK.

I THINK THAT SHE TOUCHED ON SOME GOOD THINGS, WHICH IS TO POINT OUT THE CHALLENGES THAT ARE BEING FACED WITH FEDERAL CUTS AND STATE CUTS TO CITIES, AND TO TALK ABOUT REGIONALISM AND TALK ABOUT WORKING WITH KC AND ALL THE THINGS THAT WERE POSITIVE.

I THINK SHE'S OFF -- AND SHE WAS NOT MY FIRST CHOICE, BUT I THINK YOU GOT TO BE FAIR AND SAY SHE'S BEEN OFF TO A GOOD START.

I KNOW YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT, BUT I DO THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD STEP IF SHE HIRED AN AFRICAN AMERICAN POLICE CHIEF.

THAT ISN'T ESSENTIAL, BUT I ALSO DON'T THINK IT'S MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TO LOOK LOCALLY AND NATIONALLY, BUT I THINK SHE'S OFF TO A DECENT START.

SHE'S GOT -- >> OKAY.

>> I THINK THAT THE -- I THINK THAT THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN ST.

LOUIS HAVE AMASSED AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF POWER IN THIS AGE OF TECHNOLOGY LATELY.

I REALLY DO.

AND SHE IS GOING TO HAVE TO CALL UPON THAT GROUP, WHETHER IT'S PEOPLE LIKE SARA FENSKY WHO SAT IN A DONNYBROOK A FEW WEEKS AGO, HIGHLY THOUGHT OF.

WHETHER IT IS TISHAURA JONES, SHE'S GOING TO HAVE TO EXTEND A HAND TO TISHAURA JONES.

IF SHE DOES ANYTHING THAT SMACKS OF THE GOOD OL' DAYS LIKE SAYING THAT WE'RE IN AN ECONOMIC RENAISSANCE, IN MY OPINION, THAT WOULD BE AN INVERTED ECONOMIC RENAISSANCE, THEN SHE'S GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH TIME.

>> WELL, I THINK IN FAIRNESS TO HER, EXTENDING A HAND TO TISHAURA JONES, I DON'T KNOW HOW SUCCESSFUL THAT WILL BE.

I THINK TISHAURA JONES IS AMBITIOUS AND ALMOST WON THE MAYORAL RACE THIS TIME AND I THINK TISHAURA WILL BE A CRITIC FROM THE GET-GO.

>> OR HER DAD.

>> I CALL THAT SHE'S GOING TO WORK WITH THEM.

>> RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW.

>> IN FAIRNESS TO TISHAURA, THERE ARE SOME SUBSTANTIVE POINTS HERE TOO.

I MEAN CERTAINLY HER DEVELOPMENT PERSON SHE BROUGHT IN HAS REPRESENTED BIG DEVELOPERS.

>> LINDA MARTINEZ.

>> RIGHT, AND I'M SURE SHE'S FINE, BUT ONE OF THE REAL DEFINING ISSUES ALONG WITH CRIME AND OTHERS IS GOING TO BE HOW THE CITY HANDLES THE QUESTION OF TIFs AND THE QUESTION OF TAX BREAKS FOR DEVELOPERS, WHICH PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS ARE VERY TUNED INTO, INCLUDING TISHAURA, AND DARLENE GREEN WHO SPOKE ABOUT -- >> I'M JUST SAYING -- >> NO, PRACTICALLY SPEAKING -- >> I THINK IT'S FAIR -- >> BUT THAT'S GOING TO BE A BIG PART OF IT.

>> IT'S A HUGE PART OF IT BECAUSE THE CITY IS FACING A $20 MILLION DEFICIT.

IT KEEPS GIVING EVERY DEVELOPER, EVEN THOSE WHO HAVE MEANS AND ARE DEVELOPING SOME OF THE FINEST CONDOS IN THE CHICCEST NEIGHBORHOODS, THEY'RE GIVING THEM DEVELOPMENT TAX BREAKS AND SO WHEN LYDA KREWSON SAYS WE DON'T HAVE -- WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT MONEY COMING FROM -- NOT COMING FROM THE STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WELL YOU KNOW WHAT?

WE WOULDN'T HAVE A $20 MILLION DEFICIT IF EVERY TOM, DICK AND HARRY DEVELOPER WEREN'T GETTING A TAX BREAK.

>> I THOUGHT DURING THE CAMPAIGN, CANDIDATE KREWSON, ALDERWOMAN KREWSON, SAID SHE WAS A CPA.

>> SHE IS.

>> AND THAT WAS GOING TO FIND THE MONEY THAT WASN'T THERE.

>> BUT YOU'VE GOT ALSO TO REMEMBER THAT IT'S NOT ALL OR NOTHING.

IT'S NOT LIKE A CITY CAN UNILATERAL DISARM THEMSELVES FROM ALL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT TOOLS.

>> BUT IF YOU HAVE THIS ECONOMIC RENAISSANCE, WHY DO YOU STILL NEED TO INCENTIVIZE EVERY DEVELOP TO MOVE IN HERE.

>> YOU DON'T DO EVERYONE ONE, BUT YOU CAN'T SAY NO TO ALL OF THEM EITHER.

>> I NEED THAT CPA TO COME LOOK AT MY CHECKING AND SAVINGS ACCOUNT AND FIND SOME MONEY.

IT'S NOT THERE, IT'S NOT THERE.

>> LET'S GO TO THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES, WENDY WIESE, WHERE THERE WAS A NOW, CASE IN FRONT OF IT THIS WEEK.

I THINK IT WAS THE FIRST CASE THAT NEIL GORSUCH, THE NEW MEMBER OF THE COURT HEARD.

IT'S A MISSOURI CASE INVOLVING TRINITY LIEUTENANT LUTHERAN, A SCHOOL IN COLUMBIA, MISSOURI, THAT'S PAROCHIAL AND TRYING TO GET $20,000 IN STATE MONEY TO FUND A NEW PLAYGROUND WITH A NICE RUBBER SURFACE AS OPPOSED TO STONE OR DIRT THAT HURT THE KIDS' KNEES IF THEY FELL.

WELL, THE STATE HAS AN AMENDMENT THAT SAYS NO PUBLIC MONEY CAN GO TO ANY SECT OR RELIGION.

THE SCHOOL CHALLENGED THAT AND TOOK IT TO THE SUPREME COURT AND IT SEEMS LIKE THE SCHOOL GOT A PRETTY GOOD RECEPTION FROM THE JUSTICES IFS WHAT DO YOU THINK, SHOULD THERE BE STATE POINT FOR A PLAYGROUND FOR A LUTHERAN SCHOOL?

>> EVEN JUSTICE KAGAN, WHO WAS AN OBAMA APPOINTEE, SEEMED TO BE AT LEAST SYMPATHETIC TO TRINITY.

JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER CAME RIGHT OUT AND SAID, ASKED THE LAWYER REPRESENTING THE STATE WHETHER OR NOT THE STATE WOULD EXTEND THINGS LIKE FIRE AND POLICE PROTECTION TO THE SCHOOL, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THIS IS -- AS HE WAS SAYING, THIS IS A SAFETY ISSUE.

I THINK THAT THIS IS A -- LIKE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE, BELIEVE THAT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT THE BLAINE AMENDMENT AND THAT SCHOOL CHOICE, YOU'VE GOT BETSY DeVOS AT EDUCATION, AND ONCE YOU -- ONCE YOU QUESTION THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF BLAINE AS IT STANDS IN 38 STATES, BECAUSE 38 STATES HAVE BLAINE AMENDMENTS IN THEIR CONSTITUTIONS, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO SEE SOME REAL MOVEMENT IN SCHOOL CHOICE.

>> WELL, 38 STATES HAVE BLAINE AMENDMENTS FOR A SIMPLE REASON, WHICH IS TO PROTECT THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

AND THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO THE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN THIS COUNTRY IS FOR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS TO BECOME ENTANGLED FINANCIALLY WITH GOVERNMENT.

IN ANY RESPECT.

AND THE BEST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN -- >> DOES THAT MEAN AMBULANCES, SECURITY -- >> I TELL YOU, WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT -- >> NO SIDEWALKS?

>> EVERYBODY THINKS PLAYGROUNDS ARE GREAT.

NOW THE QUESTION IS DOES THE MUSLIM CHURCH GET THE -- DO THE MUSLIM FAITH DO, THEY GET IT?

DOES GOVERNMENT DECIDE -- >> YES, YES.

THE AMBULANCE WILL GO TO A MUSLIM IF THE -- >> I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT AMBULANCES.

>> THAT'S GOVERNMENT.

>> THAT'S THE WHOLE THING.

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SCHOOLS OF OTHER SECTS NEEDING TO FIX THEIR PLAY GROUND, THEN THE STATE WOULD BE TURNING AROUND TRYING EVERY REASON IN THE WORLD THAT THEY SHOULDN'T GET STATE MONEY.

WHERE DOES IT STOP?

RAY SAID IT BEST.

THIS IS ABOUT SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

I'M SORRY, BUT THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

>> BUT NO FIRE PROTECTION FOR THE SCHOOLS, NO POLICE PROTECTION?

>> THAT'S TWO DIFFERENT ARGUMENT.

>> ACTUALLY IN 1875 DURING THE WHOLE BLAINE KERFUFFLE WHEN IT DID NOT BECOME -- WHEN IT DID NOT BECOME PART OF THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION, BUT WHEN AWE THESE OTHER STATES ADOPTED IT, IT WAS DURING A PERIOD OF VIRULENT ANTI-CATHOLICISM AND PROTESTANT HYMNS WERE BEING SUNG IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND PROTESTANT PLAYERS -- >> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TEN YEARS AFTER -- >> I'M SORRY, THAT'S -- >> THIS IS TEN YEARS AFTER SLAVERY ENDED, AND I WASN'T EVEN AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, SO THE CONSTITUTION CAN BE LOOKED AT IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THIS?

>> YOU'RE SAYING IT WAS RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION THAT LED TO THIS.

I'M SAYING THERE WAS A LOT GOING ON -- >> SLAVERY WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

>> I'M SAYING A LOT WAS GOING ON THAT THE CONSTITUTION DID OR DIDN'T PROTECT AT THAT TIME.

>> BUT IN 2017 -- >> IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON.

>> TALKING ABOUT MOVING ON, YOU'RE SAYING THAT THEY WERE PROTESTANT PLAYERS AND THIS IS ANTI-CATHOLICISM AND AS A PROTESTANT, WE DON'T EVEN HAVE ANYONE ON THE SUPREME COURT ANYMORE, DO WE?

>> YOU PERSECUTED MINORITIES, WHITE PROTESTANT!

WE'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING FOR YOU!

>> I'M JUST SAYING.

>> LET'S MOVE ON.

I'M SURE THERE WILL BE PHONE CALLS ON YOUR TURN.

WHO'S ON YOUR TURN TONIGHT, BY THE WAY?

ALVIN AND BILL, ALL RIGHT.

>> A COUPLE OF PROTESTANTS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, THERE WAS A BILL IN JEFF CITY THAT WOULD RAISE THE SALES TAX IN FIVE COUNTIES TO BENEFIT THE ZOO.

JEFFERSON COUNTY, ST.

CHARLES, FRANKLIN, ST.

LOUIS CITY, AND ST.

LOUIS COUNTY.

NOW AFTER ALL SORTS OF DEBATE, IT'S BEEN WHITTLED DOWN TO ONE-EIGHTH OF A SALES TAX INCREASE TO BENEFIT THE ZOO FOR JUST ST.

LOUIS CITY AND ST.

LOUIS COUNTY, TWO AREAS THAT ARE ALREADY PAYING A PROPERTY TAX FOR THE ZOO.

>> WHAT A SHOCK, WHAT A SHOCK THAT THE OTHER COUNTIES -- THAT'S UNBELIEVABLE THAT THE OTHER COUNTIES AREN'T -- IF THIS ISN'T THE WORST IDEA EVER PROPOSED WITH REGARD TO TAXATION, IT'S RIGHT THERE WITH IT.

THERE IS SO MUCH WRONG WITH THIS, STARTING WITH THE FACT THAT THE ZOO IS LEGAL RI A MEMBER OF SOMETHING -- LEGALLY A MEMBER OF SOMETHING CALLED THE ZOO MUSEUM DISTRICT, WHICH LAST TIME I CHECKED WASN'T THE ZOO DISTRICT.

THIS IS SO UNFAIR AND I'M NOT SPEAKING FOR THEM, THEY HAVEN'T SAID A PEOPLE PEEP, BUT THE ART MUSEUM AND THE HISTORY MUSEUM AND THE SCIENCE CENTER AND THE BOTANICAL GARDENS OUGHT TO BE SAYING, HEY, WHAT ABOUT US?

IF YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S OUTRAGEOUS ON THAT LEVEL, OUTRAGEOUS ON THE LEVEL THAT WE'RE ALL PAYING PROPERTY TAXES IN OUR HOMES, WE'RE PAYING PROPERTY TAXES WHERE WE SHOP BECAUSE COMMERCIAL ENTITIES LIKE THE ONE I USED TO OWN COLLECT PROPERTY TAX, AND THEN ON TOP OF IT, IT'S ALL TO FUND A LIE, WHICH IS THAT WE HAVE A FREE ZOO WHEN IN FACT WE THE PEOPLE HAVE GIVEN $21 MILLION A YEAR USING -- BECAUSE THE ZOO IS WEDDED TO A 20th CENTURY TOURISM MODEL IN THE 21st CENTURY.

>> I AGREE WITH THAT.

I THINK WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHARGE ADMISSION FOR THE ZOO, WHY NOT?

>> TO PEOPLE THAT AREN'T PAYING TAXES, THOUGH.

>> I'LL GO ALONG WITH THAT.

BUT I DISAGREE, I DON'T THINK THAT THE ZOO, WHICH IS A SEPARATE INSTITUTION, AND BY ITS OWN CHARTER, NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE ART MUSEUM OR THE MISSOURI BOTANICAL GARDEN, THE HISTORY MUSEUM, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO WORK IN LOCK STEP WITH ALL THE OTHER -- >> THAT'S WHY WE SET UP THE DISTRICT TO SUPPORT THEM ALL.

>> BUT IF THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING LIKE ZOO-FARI NIGHT, YOU CAN ASK A FOR A TAX OUTSIDE THE DISTRICT -- >> IT'S A GREAT ZOO, BUT IT'S PART OF A TAXING DISTRICT -- >> THE DISTRICT ITSELF ALREADY INCLUDES THINGS LIKE THE TRANSPORTATION MUSEUM, THE MAGIC HOUSE AND THE SYMPHONY, SO THE DISTRICT ITSELF IS ALREADY EXCLUSIVE.

>> IT'S PART OF A DISTRIBUTION AND IF IT'S ABOUT TAXATION, IT GOT TO BE PART -- >> IT'S BOUND BY IT.

>> IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE.

YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE.

>> I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT I WAS THE ONLY PERSON THAT THOUGHT THE ZOO SHOULD STAY FREE.

>> YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY PERSON IN ST. LOUIS.

>> I REALLY DO.

BUT THIS WHOLE THING, ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'RE ASKING PEOPLE IN ST.

LOUIS AND ST.

LOUIS COUNTY TO UP MORE MONEY FOR THE ZOO, WHICH THEY ALREADY DO, THAT -- I MEAN, THAT'S A NON-STARTER FOR ME.

THAT JUST DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

YOU'RE RIGHT THERE.

>> WELL, I ALSO THINK THE SALES TAX IN THE CITY AND THE COUNTY IS ALREADY TOO HIGH AND I DON'T CARE WHAT THE COST IS -- >> OF COURSE, IT IS.

>> IT WAS TOO HIGH BEFORE THE LAST RAISE.

>> AND IT'S ALSO REGRESSIVE.

>> WE'VE SAID THAT SO MANY TIMES.

>> SISTER TRACY McCURRY STOOD UP AGAINST IT, STATE REP FROM ST.

LOUIS, AND -- I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO PASS, BY THE WAY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

ON TO UBER, WHICH IS THE NEW TRANSPORTATION SERVICE.

APPARENTLY THOSE WHO WENT TO THE CHRIS ROCK CONCERT, ALVIN, WERE JUST WAITING FOR UBER -- EVERYONE TOOK UBER HOME.

NO ONE IS TAKING METROLINK AND IT'S THE WAY TO TRAVEL, ARE A SO I WAS TOLD ANECDOTALLY AND IT'S THE WAY LOT OF PEOPLE WANT TO TRAVEL IN OUR AREA.

SO THE FOLKS IN JEFFERSON CITY, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HAVE CHANGED THE LAWS NOW AND THEY'RE GOING TO ALLOW UBER, NO FINGERPRINTS, NO INSPECTION OF THE METERS, AND THE UBER DRIVERS WON'T HAVE TO PAY SALES TAX IN THE CITY OR COUNTY WHERE THEY OPERATE, SO UBER WILL BE LEGAL THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF MISSOURI.

YOU LIKE THAT?

>> I DO, AND THINK I THAT THE CAB MONOPOLY THAT EXISTED HERE IN ST.

LOUIS CAN DO -- THEY CAN FOLLOW THESE STEPS.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO, THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT.

THE DEREGULATION AND THINGS THAT THE GOVERNOR TALKS ABOUT FOR THE MOST PART, YOU KNOW, THAT CAUSES ME CONCERN, BUT I MEAN, THIS IS ONE WHERE THIS IS A STANDARD THESE BEING SET THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

ST.

LOUIS IS KIND OF LIKE CATCHING UP WITH OTHER METROPOLITAN AREAS, AND I JUST DON'T -- I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT.

>> WELL, STEVE BALLMAN OUT IN ST.

CHARLES WAS SAYING THAT IF THE LEGISLATURE DIDN'T TAKE CARE OF THIS, THAT THEY WERE GOING TO PUT IT BEFORE THE VOTERS, THAT HE FEELS LIKE THEY'RE AT SUCH A DISADVANTAGE OUT THERE, ESPECIALLY IN HISTORIC ST.

CHARLES WHERE THEY HAVE SOME TERRIFIC RESTAURANTS.

YOU KNOW, IT'S SORT OF THE TECHNOLOGICAL, YOU KNOW, EQUIVALENT OF WI-FI.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT, IT'S GOING TO BE A CHECKMARK AGAINST YOUR COMMUNITY.

>> WELL, I KNOW I'M HOLDING ON TO THE 20th CENTURY, BUT I LIKE THE IDEA OF PEOPLE HAVING JOBS AND THE CAB DRIVERS HAVE ACTUAL JOBS.

GET RID OF ALL THESE JOBS AND HAVE EVERYTHING BE PART-TIME, NO BENEFITS, IT'S JUST SAD TO ME.

>> IT'S ALSO UNFAIR BECAUSE THE ONE THING -- I THINK UBER AND LYFT, FOR THEM TO BE PROVIDING TAXI SERVICE -- WHICH IS WHAT THEY WERE DOING, BY THE WAY.

RIDE SHARING.

IT'S A TAXI SERVICE.

MOVING PEOPLE FROM POINT A TO POINT B FOR MONEY BASED ON DISTANCE AND MILEAGE.

OKAY, GREAT.

THERE'S NOTHING -- IT'S A NOBLE PROFE, BUT THE IDEA -- PROFESSION, BUT THE IDEA THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE HIPSTERS AND COOL AND BECAUSE THEY SPEND BILLIONS ON A VISION, THAT THEY SOMEHOW SHOULD HAVE A SEPARATE SET OF RULES AND EXEMPT FROM THIS AND EXEMPT FROM THAT.

ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS -- I HAVEN'T SEEN THE LEGISLATION IN ITS FINAL FORM.

IF IN FACT THEY'RE GOING TO LET UBER AND LYFT SCREEN THEIR OWN DRIVERS, THEN I THINK THE NEXT THING WE OUGHT TO DO IS LET RESTAURANTS DO THEIR OWN INSPECTIONS.

BECAUSE LET'S FACE IT.

I GOT TO TELL YOU, I WOULD EAT AT TONY'S, I WOULD TRUST THEM TO INSPECT THEIR OWN KITCHEN.

LET'S SAVE MONEY ON RESTAURANT INSPECTORS AS LONG AS WE'RE GOING TO LET THEM RUN THEIR OWN -- >> I HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THAT AND IT'S THIS.

RAY, YOU'RE GOING TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE IF YOU WANT A HIGHLY REGULATED AND INSPECTED FORM OF TRANSPORTATION, YOU CALL COUNTY CAB AND IF IT DOESN'T MEAN MUCH TO YOU AND YOU'RE NOT AFRAID, YOU CAN CALL UBER.

I CAN GO TO A DOCTOR WITH A PAIN IN THE BACK AND HE OR SHE WENT TO MED SCHOOL AND IS CERTIFIED, FINE, BUT IF I WANT TO THROW CAUTION TO THE WIND AND GOOD TO SOMEBODY WITH ACUPUNCTURE WITH LESS TRAINING, I CAN DO THAT.

>> THEN LET'S GET RID OF THE REGULATIONS ON THE CAB.

>> YOU LIKE THE CAB.

YOU WILL FEEL SAFE WITH YOUR FAMILY GOING TO LAMBERT IN A CAB.

HIS FAMILY WILL GO IN UBER.

>> AND BY THE WAY, I'M NOT MAKING LIGHT OF A REAL TRAGEDY, BUT SOMEHOW IN THE CITY OF ST.

LOUIS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE YOUR BOILERS INSPECTED BY THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

YOU CAN SAY, BE LIKE, YEAH, WE GOT IT INSPECTED.

HOW DOES THAT TURN OUT?

>> YOU'RE MAKING MY POINT.

YOU'RE MAKING MY POINT.

>> NO, WHAT I'M SAYING IS WE GOT MUCH MORE SERIOUS -- >> HE JUST MADE MY POINT.

>> I DID NOT.

I'M SAYING WE HAVE MUCH MORE SERIOUS SITUATIONS THAN THE CAB YOU TAKE BECAUSE, LISTEN -- >> UNLESS SON OF SAM IS YOUR CAB DRIVER, OKAY?

THAT'S -- [ ALL TALKING AT ONCE ] >> NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> IT'S NOT LIKE I'M GOING TO WORKPLACE.

THIS IS I CALL THEM UP, TELL THEM TO COME TO MY HOUSE, PICK ME UP.

THAT'S ON ME, ALL RIGHT?

THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM WHERE I GO TO WORK AND MY WORKPLACE BLEW UP.

>> YOU TELL ME WITH YOUR IDEA YOU CAN GO TO THIS AND YOU CAN GO TO THAT.

YOU'RE GNG TO PUT THESE PEOPLE -- GOING TO PUT THESE PEOPLE OUT OF BUSINESS.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE 100% OF THE BUSINESS AWAY FROM A COMPANY TO MAKE IT GO UNDER.

SOMETIMES YOU TAKE 30% AWAY.

YOU'LL KILL THE CAB COMPANIES.

>> LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MAJOR METROPOLITAN DAILIES IN COUNTRY AND JOURNALISM.

IT'S A LITTLE TRICKLE, TRICKLE, TRICKLE -- >> CHARLIE, ON YOUR PART, BACK TO MY ANALOGY ABOUT THE RESTAURANT, WHY NOT HAVE INSPECTED RESTAURANTS WITH THE A'S IN THE WINDOW -- >> WE HAVE THAT.

IT'S CALLED BAKE SALES IN FRONT OF YOUR LAWN.

>> NO, NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT RESTAURANTS.

YOU OPERATE A COMMERCIAL RESTAURANT -- >> WE HAD THAT GIRL THAT WAS MAKING COOKIES IN HER OWN KITCHEN AND YOU SUPPORTED HER BECAUSE SHE WASN'T INSPECTED.

>> GREAT.

MY POINT IS IF YOU'RE RUNNING A COMMERCIAL RESTAURANT -- [ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> IF YOU RUN A COMMERCIAL RESTAURANT -- I'M ALSO THE GUY WITH -- >> I'M SORRY, BILL, THAT'S HOW THE ECONOMY IS NOW.

THE COMMERCIAL SAYS GET THE SIDE HUSTLE ON AND THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

PEOPLE NEED MORE MONEY AND I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT.

>> WE HAVE TO MOVE ON TO OUR LAST TOPIC OF THE EVENING AND THEN WE HAVE YOUR TURN WITH BILL AND ALVIN.

BILL, LACY CLAY LOST A LEGAL CASE THIS PAST WEEK.

THE CARDINAL RITTER GRAD CREATED A CONTROVERSIAL PHOTO THAT WAS IN THE TUNNEL LEADING FROM THE CAPITOL TO THE OFFICE BUILDING IN WASHINGTON.

I WAS NOT A BIG FAN OF THIS PARTICULAR PORTRAIT, BUT I THOUGHT THAT GOVERNMENT SHOULDN'T SAY WHETHER OR NOT IT SHOULD HANG BASED ON CONTENT.

HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS?

>> I DISAGREE WITH YOU.

I THINK IF A YOUNG MAN WANTS TO DO A PICTURE DEPICTING POLICEMEN AS PIGS OR JEWISH PEOPLE IN A DEROGATORY MANNER, HE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO IT AND IF YOU WANT TO HANG IT IN YOUR HOME OR AN ART GALLERY, THAT'S FINE, BUT I DON'T THINK THE GOVERNMENT IS REQUIRED TO HANG THOSE THINGS UP AND I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A FREE SPEECH ISSUE.

ESPECIALLY IN THESE DIVISIVE TIMES, ANTI-POLICE, POLICE AS PIGS, A PAINTING HANGING IN THE HALLS OF CONGRESS, I THOUGHT IT WAS WRONG AND I'M GLAD THAT LACY CLAY LOST THAT LAWSUIT.

>> TO BE FAIR, I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THE CROWDS, SOME OF THOSE FOLKS WERE ALSO DEPICTED AS SWINE WITH HORNS.

IT WASN'T JUST -- >> I THINK IT COMES DOWN, PEOPLE WORK IN FEDERAL OFFICES WITH A PICTURE OF THE PRESIDENT IN IT BEFORE AND AFTER AND SAY I REALLY DON'T -- MY FREE SPEECH, I DON'T WANT THAT UP THERE, BUT YOU HAVE NO SAY.

>> YOU'LL HAVE YOUR SAY IF YOU WRITE US A LETTER IN CARE OF KETC, 3655 OLIVE STREET, ST.

LOUIS, MISSOURI 63108.

DON'T FORGET THOSE EMAILS, LETTERS@KETC.ORG AND THE TWEETS WHICH WILL BE READ SOON, #DONNYBROOKSTL.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON DONNYBROOK, BUT STAY TUNED FOR DONNYBROOK YOUR TURN WHEN ALVIN AND BILL TAKE YOUR PHONE CALLS.

DON'T GO AWAY.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF THE MEMBERS OF KETC.