♪ ♪ ♪ (theme music playing) ♪ RUBENSTEIN: Hello, I'm David Rubenstein.

I'm gonna be in conversation today with Marie Arana, who is an author, historian, editor, and the first literary director of the Library of Congress.

And we're gonna talk today about many subjects that she's an expert on, but including Revolutionary America from the Spanish perspective.

We're coming to you from the Robert H. Smith Auditorium at New York Historical.

Marie, thank you very much for being here.

ARANA: Oh, it's such a pleasure, David, always.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

So, let's talk about, um, your view on the Revolutionary War and the impact that Latinos, Hispanics had.

So, the conventional view in the United States is that the Americans, the colonies, fought against the British, and we were supported by the French.

ARANA: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, you say in things you've written that we were actually supported very heavily as well, by Spain and by other people of Hispanic descent.

Can you explain that?

ARANA: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Um, this is such an interesting subject to me because it's so ignored and so neglected.

It was, uh, remember a, a time of global warfare.

The, all the colonial powers were fighting each other, France, Spain, England, the Dutch.

Uh, and, and they had been fighting each other in the, in the Seven Years War, which in America is called the French-Indian War because it's the part of it that is important to Americans.

But, um, and this is a, a war that went, um, all the way to 1763, uh, uh, you know, it was for, for seven years.

And, um, during, in the course of that war, there were all, there were great trading of territories because what happened is, uh, Spain lost Manila.

It lost Havana, it lost Florida.

And then, during the Peace Treaty, part of it was given back, but part of it was not.

They gained Louisiana, Spain did.

France lost, uh, its, all of its territory.

It lost Canada, it lost Louisiana.

So, so it was no longer, France was no longer a part of the Western Hemisphere.

RUBENSTEIN: So let's start with, um, before the Revolutionary War, there was a person named Christopher Columbus.

ARANA: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: And he sailed looking for the New World.

ARANA: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: And this is in 1492.

ARANA: Correct.

RUBENSTEIN: And he missed North America... ARANA: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: ...but he kind of got to Central America, what we now call it.

And he was sent here by who?

ARANA: He was sent here by the Spanish Queen, by Isabella and Ferdinand, um, the Spanish Royal Throne, shall we say.

RUBENSTEIN: And, and after Christopher Columbus, who made three trips ultimately, but after him, there were many other Spanish, um, conquistadors or other people came over.

And before the Revolutionary War, the North American continent was more Latino than it was British.

Is that right?

ARANA: Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

The, the territories of Spain, um, after 1601, which was when they, uh, came from the Mexico, which was the northernmost point, uh, and they came up into the North American continent, there had been, uh, Spaniards who had inhabited, uh, North America before, because don't forget, Cabeza de Vaca was, um, stranded, shipwrecked, uh, on, uh, American land, and then proceeded, live here for 10 years.

But the, um, the, the population that came up from, uh, Mexico, there were all, uh, Spanish, who then came up and populated New Mexico, Arizona, California, all the way up to Colorado, uh, and then from the West Coast, all the way from California to Kansas.

And that was all Spanish land.

RUBENSTEIN: So as we prepare for the 250th anniversary of, uh, the Revolutionary War and the birth of our country, we often look at the, North American think, well, this is an American-British kind of, uh, country at the time, but truthfully, most of the land, as you point out in your books, is really, um, occupied by people of Hispanic descent.

Is that right?

ARANA: Correct.

Uh, and mixed blood, because this was an amazing experiment that happened in 1492 and thereafter, was this extraordinary, um, racial mix that happened in, in the Western Hemisphere at that time.

The Spanish were very open to marrying other races, and had to be because the, the first push of Conquistadores, uh, did not bring their women.

Eventually, they did.

Uh, eventually it got to the point where, uh, uh, Isabella and Ferdinand were saying, "You need to bring the women to actually make this, uh, uh, truly Spanish, uh, uh, colony."

But at the time, there were all kinds of, of races.

And so, there was this push up into the North American continent that was, not only for evangelizing purposes for to, to, to bring more Catholics into the world, but also territorial.

It was, it was, uh, it was a power move and a very strong power move.

And when the, uh, English started nibbling on the... RUBENSTEIN: Right.

ARANA: ...east coast of the United States, this was a, this was a transgression not only of the, of the Indian tribes that lived on the, on the continent, but of the Spaniards who had already taken, um, hold on the continent.

RUBENSTEIN: On things you've written, you've pointed out that the English, when they were doing a lot of exploring or sending ships around, they were really trying to get wealth that the Spanish already had, that they had already taken from other parts of North America, South America.

And a lot of the wealth was really wealth that had originally been accrued to the Spanish, uh, empire.

Is that right?

ARANA: Uh, so much money was coursing through Spain at that time.

Don't forget the, the, the gold rush that America, uh, that the American, um, continents provided.

The silver, the gold.

Spain actually began, uh, global, the global market.

I mean, it had, it was sending its gold and its silver and, and, and its minerals, and its coffee, and its, all the way to Manila, which it also owned.

So, um, there was this tremendous global market that was created by Spain, and so when, of course, the, the Pilgrims came and populated the east coast, they were very, very strict about saying, "Okay, but you're not going beyond the Mississippi.

You're not going beyond the Ohio River."

And, um, they, there were transgressions all the time.

So... RUBENSTEIN: So when the Revolution War broke out, you have 13 American colonies or British colonies fighting against the, the mother, uh, country.

Um, why would Spain care, who won that war?

Why did they really care whether the British won or whether the colonies won?

ARANA: Interesting, because, you know, from the very beginning, uh, John Adams, I think it was in, in 1776, already just be-before the Revolution really went into gear, um, John Adams said, "We, we can't do this without, um, French and Spanish help.

We cannot do this."

Um, France cared on, on the question of independence.

Um, touchy subject, because of course, France had its royal dominions and it had its colonies, and it didn't like the, the subject of independence generally.

Um, but it knew that it needed to fight England.

Spain was a little bit slower on that front because it hated England.

It had been at war with England and the Spanish Armada and all the way, uh, until, um, 1663.

And still, um, the, there was a threat of, um, the English taking over the Spanish colonies that had been established in the Caribbean, and, and they were already poking into Honduras, and they were poking into Guatemala.

And, um, so Spain perceived the American Revolution as being, as being useful because it was against England.

They didn't necessarily, uh, think that the revolution was great because it would be great for Americans.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

So, they were really not so much for the colonies, but they were against England?

ARANA: They were against England.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

ARANA: Absolutely.

RUBENSTEIN: So the, the leading person in, from Spain, uh, who was in the United States at the time, were the colonies there in North America, who was that?

ARANA: His name was Bernardo de Gálvez, and an extraordinary person.

He had come from a family, he really was a, um, his family were, um, sheep herders, um, sort of impoverished nobility.

And, um, but an uncle, his uncle, his father's brother was Jose de Gálvez, who was, um, who had an extraordinary career, was, uh, a diplomat, a charmer, an extraordinary, uh, sort of powerhouse.

He became the leader, the whole governor, uh, of, of the West Indies.

And he put his brother, this would be Bernardo's father, as the Viceroy of, uh, New Spain, which was Mexico.

And he took young Bernardo, who had joined the military at the age of 16 and mentored him, and eventually gave him the governorship of Louisiana, which in 19- in, in, um, 1763 had been won, um, in the Seven-Year's war.

RUBENSTEIN: But he had a big army.

He had a gigantic, uh, economic, uh, impact and that... ARANA: He was an extraordinary person.

He was, um, he, he was incredibly enlightened.

Uh, he was very enlightened about, uh, the Indian tribes, about race, about educating the people, about a public presence, about taking care of, of the communities that he governed.

He was very, very young at the time.

I mean, he was in, he was, uh, 30 when he became the governor of Louisiana.

And he had an American-born wife.

Um, so he had certain sentiments toward, uh, America, but he was really, he was really focused on, on, uh, Spain's desire to not let, um, to, to not appear that they were helping Americans so much as they were fighting Spain, uh, England.

RUBENSTEIN: He said he would help the Americans if they, nobody knew about it, more or less.

ARANA: Exactly.

In fact, it was in, in 1776, uh, just about, um, after the Declaration of Independence that, um, a military captain, I think he was, um, named George Morgan, who was at Fort Pitt, uh, sent down a flotilla to, down the Mississippi River.

To New Orleans, which is where Bernardo de Gálvez was.

And, and asked for help because at that point, the con, the Continental Army and George Washington were in big trouble.

They had no money.

They had, they had no troops.

They had no medicine, they had no blankets.

I mean, the very things that, um, an army needs.

And he said, "Would you help us?"

And Bernardo de Gálvez did exactly what you said.

He said, "We, I will help you, but you must let people be ignorant," that was his exact words, "of the fact that I'm helping here."

RUBENSTEIN: Now, how do you spell his last name, it was?

ARANA: Gálvez, G-A-L-V-E-Z.

RUBENSTEIN: And is there a city that later became named after him?

ARANA: Galveston.

RUBENSTEIN: Right.

ARANA: Of course.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

ARANA: And the Bay, oh, no, the Bay of Galveston, which, uh, um, uh, was a, originally the Bay de San Bernardo, which was after him.

RUBENSTEIN: So, in case people may not realize how significant he was, the United States has only given honorary citizenship to eight individuals in our entire history.

Eight people.

They are Winston Churchill, Raoul Wallenberg, Mother Teresa, uh, and... ARANA: William Penn.

And Bernardo de Gálvez.

RUBENSTEIN: Right.

ARANA: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: So one of the few people to get an honorary American citizenship, it must have been pretty significant.

ARANA: By President Obama, by President Obama in 2014.

It took that long for, uh, for that recognition.

You know, it, it, it, it was, it, it was a very complex time because at that, uh, on the one hand, um, Spain did not want to be, um, supporting the independence of a former colony because it had colonies all over Latin America.

Didn't want to appear that it was, it was doing that.

But at the same time, it began at that point, after George Morgan asked for help, there was a great flood of money.

And, uh, actually, Spain invested more money in the American Revolution than any other country, including France.

RUBENSTEIN: And did, and did the fighters... How many people actually fought in the war for who were of Hispanic descent?

ARANA: Thousands, thousands of them.

I mean, the armies were as large as 8,000, uh, uh, uh, strong.

And they were coming up the river, flying Spanish flags and delivering blankets.

The blanket that you, the famous portrait that you've seen of George Washington crossing the Delaware with the ice and everything, the blankets that are on those people, the blanket that's on George Washington was given by the Spanish to them, to the Continental Army.

So... RUBENSTEIN: Why do you think, uh, all these years after the Revolution War, uh, people don't realize the contributions that the Spanish gave?

ARANA: I think it's, uh, you know, it's, it's general neglect.

It's the reason why, David, I have written eight books on the uh, on the story of Hispanics, uh, not only in this country, but also, um, the, our, our history before.

And, uh, I think it's just a general neglect.

Um, and it's something that, that I've dedicated my whole career to, to, um, fighting because I think, uh, the, the history of Hispanics in this country, which goes all the way back, uh, we have fought in every war that America has ever prosecuted.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, let's go through some of these other wars.

Uh, the next war after the Revolutionary War was the War of 1812.

ARANA: Correct.

RUBENSTEIN: And, uh, who was in that of the Spanish descent?

ARANA: Well, most famously it was, uh, Jordi Farragut, who was the only, uh, actually he had fought in the Revolution as well, and then went back as a broken, um, veteran to fight in the war of 1812.

RUBENSTEIN: And he Americanized, or his son Americanized his name to what?

ARANA: His son, David Farragut, a completely Spanish Menorcan, who was, uh, orphaned really.

His mother died when he was only nine years old, and his father was fighting in the War of 1812, the Revolutionary War, et cetera.

And so he was, incapable of actually raising this son.

So he gave his son to a friend who was also in the military, also in the Navy.

And, um, this son was raised by an American.

Um, and, uh, became so American that people have forgotten he was Hispanic.

He was the first Admiral of the United States Navy.

And try to find that in an American textbook.

He was, he was the, the, David Farragut was the Admiral who said, during the Civil War, "Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead."

Um, and yet, uh, when you look at his statue on Farragut Square in Washington DC... RUBENSTEIN: Wow.

ARANA: ...There's not a word that identifies him as Hispanic.

In the bust that sits in the Army Navy Club in Washington, DC, there's nothing that identifies.

So this is like a rampant thing.

RUBENSTEIN: Right.

ARANA: We don't, we don't pay tribute to the Spanish infusion of, of, um, sort of historical event that has happened over the years.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, who was Stephen Vincent Benét?

ARANA: Oh, also, also Spanish, born in Florida to, uh, a colonial family.

Um, and, uh, he was the, uh, head of all munitions at West Point, and also a great, great figure in the American Civil War.

And he was never, he's, he's not identified as, as Hispanic either, but he was 100% Spanish.

And his son also, Stephen Vincent Benét, became, of course, a great literary figure, American figure.

RUBENSTEIN: And he wrote, uh, "John Brown's Body."

ARANA: Exactly.

RUBENSTEIN: So let's go to the Civil War for a moment.

Uh, in the Civil War, uh, was Spain, uh, taking sides, uh, or anything, or did the Spanish, uh, community in the United States, what were they doing?

ARANA: There were a lot of, of, of Mexicans who lived, of course, in those territories that were once, um, belonged to Spain, who participated in the Civil War, War.

There were, uh, there was a, a, a whole contingent of Puerto Ricans who came up, Cubans who came up, Mexicans who came up, Central Americans who came up to fight in the Civil War, and, um, and stayed.

RUBENSTEIN: But they were people of Hispanic descent on both sides, the North and the South.

Is that right?

ARANA: That's right.

That's right.

They fought on both sides.

RUBENSTEIN: And so I think you've pointed out in some of your writings that, uh, many times people in the southern states who were living in the southern states of Mexican descent, they were fighting for the North.

ARANA: Yes, yes, that's true, that's true.

Because they were, they were anti-slavery, uh, a lot of them.

And a lot of them had very strong convictions along those lines.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

There's another war called the Spanish-American War.

And, uh, Teddy Roosevelt famously, uh, had his Rough Riders.

Were there any people of Spanish descent helping Teddy Roosevelt?

ARANA: Of course, of course.

Um, and, uh, famously, um, many and, um, largely Mexicans and, and, uh, Cubans too, as well.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

So let's go to the first, uh, World War I. In World War I, um, we sent a lot of troops over eventually, when we got into the war, to Europe.

Were there a lot of, uh, people of Latino descent who were sent over, or what, what was the story?

ARANA: Oh, absolutely.

By then, uh, by then, uh, I think Latinos had figured out that the military was a very good way to, to climb that economic ladder, uh, of the United States.

And World War I was filled with, with Latinos.

Every war has had a certain percentage.

We've gone from, from, um, the percentage that was there in World War I, to the great percentage that we have now.

I mean, right now, um, it's, uh, 20% of the military is Latino.

25%, that's one in every four US Marines, is a Latino today.

RUBENSTEIN: So, um, when, uh, somebody of Latino descent went to fight in World War I, were they segregated from the white soldiers?

The Black soldiers were, African American were but?

Latinos, were they segregated in separate units, or are they not?

ARANA: They were, uh, uh, many units were, were segregated.

Um, and it was a funny business because there were a lot, you know, the, what we constitute as a population is people of every color.

I mean we have, we have Afro-Latinos, we have Asian-Latinos.

We have very white Latinos who are, who are, you know, very recently from, from Europe, or very curated families that have remained white.

And then we have, you know, people the we're, we are not supposed to use the word mestizo anymore, but it's a perfectly serviceable word to, um, to describe the mix that we are, which is all the races of man.

So there were the whites, Latinos who, um, who were, who actually served in, in white, um, with white troops.

They were not segregated because of their color.

And you, they, when the men came and registered in the military, they were just, whatever the other person thought they were, that they were written down that race.

RUBENSTEIN: So let's talk about World War II.

Now, in World War II, um, enormous numbers of Latinos were sent to, into the military, is that right?

ARANA: Yes, absolutely.

RUBENSTEIN: But they were not segregated, uh, at that time.

They were basically allowed to go with the white, so-called white troops, is that right?

ARANA: Yes.

In World War II, it was really interesting because of course, the, I was alive, um, when the veterans were coming back, who had come back from the war, were, um, actually not allowed to go into certain restaurants.

They were not allowed to go into certain churches.

They couldn't sit in the front pews.

They would have to sit in the back.

Um, it was a tremendously unequal treatment that they received.

Um, and when, even, even those who received the Presidential Medals of Freedom, or who were given the Purple Heart, they too were being, um, there was a tremendous prejudice about them, especially the Southwest.

There still is.

RUBENSTEIN: So, uh, many people of Latino descent were sent to fight in the Philippines because they could speak the language, the Spanish, is that right?

ARANA: Right.

That's exactly right.

RUBENSTEIN: But how many people of Latino descent or Hispanics were sent in total into World War II combat from the United States?

Was it a 10%, 20%?

ARANA: It was a, it was between 10 and 20, 20%.

It was, um, yeah, there has, there has always been, and I would say that even back starting in the Civil War, there has been growth every time we've had a war.

In the Vietnam War, Blacks were demanding to be counted.

ARANA: But they were not counting the Hispanics.

And so that there has been under-representation, when you ask the percentages, they're always slightly false, because the, the representation was never, um, perfect.

RUBENSTEIN: In the Vietnam War.

Uh, you've pointed out in things you've written that, that ultimately, um, poor Latinos may not have been well-educated.

They were being drafted, and they, or they volunteered.

And then people for upper income classes were trying to avoid the draft.

But Latinos were volunteering to go into service in part because that, for them, thought, was thought to be a better life than maybe what they were otherwise gonna get?

ARANA: It has always been, um, a better life in the military for the Latinos, which is why, uh, and they, and they, their, their passionate, in the Vietnam War, there was, uh, so many accounts of Latinos who were, the reason why they were not officers.

They were, they were line, uh, sort of infantrymen because they wanted to be in the front lines.

Um, they did, they, they did not know how to become officers.

They did not know how to become, how to, how to be mentored to become a general, or, or, um, you know, a colonel.

And so you would, you, they were mowed down in great quantities.

I mean, the, the casualties of Latinos in the Vietnam War were shocking.

RUBENSTEIN: You've written that, uh, there were, in the history of this country, there have been 2,000 people, more or less, who have, uh, attained the four-star rank, which is more or less the highest rank you can get, four-star Admiral, four-Star General.

How many of those 2000 were Latino?

ARANA: You tell me.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, it's, uh, less than 10.

ARANA: It, it, it's obviously, um, a prejudice, uh, against Latinos, but it's also this lack of, of, um, finding that mentorship that it takes, because as we all know, to, to climb up the ladder of the, of the United States military, it takes a great deal of... RUBENSTEIN: Right.

ARANA: ...of working the ranks and knowing what to do.

RUBENSTEIN: So you've written a book on Simón Bolívar.

ARANA: Bolivar.

RUBENSTEIN: Who was he?

ARANA: Simón Bolivar was, came from one of the richest families in all of Latin America at the time, well, colonial America at the time.

And, and his family had been already 300 years in the Americas when he, uh, was swept up by enlightenment thought, and, um, decided that, uh, Spain in the way that, um, the colonial America began to decide that they were being taxed too much, that all the riches of of the United States were going to England, uh.

Was very much the same reaction in, in Spanish America, because all the riches, I mean, you had this small country of Spain and you had this great big continent of South America and, and, and Central America, and all those riches were going through Spain.

And Simón Bolivar literally organized and executed and prosecuted, um, the revolution in Six Republics.

Um, and, um, he was the great liberator.

Uh, of course, San Martin, José de San Martin also was coming up from Argentina doing the same thing.

But Simón Bolivar covered more ground, and his, his family covered more history.

Um, and it's a really a good, extraordinary story.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, Maria, I want to thank you for a very interesting conversation.

I learned a lot and, uh, I appreciate all the work you've done promoting literacy.

ARANA: It's such, such... RUBENSTEIN: Okay, thank you.

ARANA: ...such a pleasure.

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